Debate II

[Jim E]

It is over Obama has it. The only way Mcain can win is if white dems vote against him [race card]. I think it is a done deal if Mcain had made a better VP choice he could have pulled it off. But as grandma use to say " if the dog had not stopped to $hit he would have caught the rabbit"

[v6jose]

What most American aren't aware of, is that Venezuela was faced with this very problem a few years ago. Hugo Chaves promissed the people to give them all kinds of stuff, so they went with him. I asked a Colombian friend of mine, that had lived in Caracas, Venezuela for 20 years, what she thought about Chaves. She was all enthusiastic about Hugo and the possibility of being elected. I told her that Hugo was a Commie, and that he would ruin the country. She still was for him, because he promissed to make everyone equal. There are food shortages and more poverty there than before. Hugo has spent a lot of his oil revenues on Russian arms, instead of on hospitals, schools and infrustructure. He says that he has to do this to defend Venezuela, but the real truth is he wants to protect his rule.

Now. After a few years of this jerk, she wishes he were dead. I asked her why, since she was such a big fan just a few years ago, she said that he had stolen the country from the people. I said that I had told her so, but to excuse herself, she said that all the corruption in the country had made he want to elect him. She now says that she is so glad that she immigrated to the US before she had a chance to vote for him, because she would feel worse now. Barrack Obama's views are just the same as Hugo's views. If Obama is elected, we will see a very different country, and it won't be good. There are no communist or socialist countries that have ended poverty; in fact, these countries have more poverty than the good old U.S. of A. Russia's collapse is proof that communism doesn't work. Cuba is another very good example of why communism doesn't work. We need to quit looking to the government to bail us out of all our problems. When the government gives you something, it takes away something. In these communist countries, they no longer have rights , not even to think as they wish. Try speaking out against the government in Cuba, Notrh Korea or Venezuela, and see where you end up.

What we all need to do is take person responsibility for ourselves, and also help those needy people in our spere of influence. The problem is that we don't want to share personally, so want for the government to do it. Shame on us.

Jose

[skywords]

Jose
I am not sure it is fair to compare Obama to Chaves. I am a registered independent who tries to look at both sides. What Obama is offering the country is amazingly parallel with what I have been wishing for since 911. The day after 911 the BMW motorcycle was tuned up and pressed into service on a daily basis rain snow or ice I rode that bike exclusively because I did not want one penny more of my money going to fund terrorist. I was naive in thinking that the rest of America would do the same instead the vehicles kept getting bigger and bigger, every time I tried to make my case with one of these people driving a 9000 pound gas guzzler they would look at me like I was nuts. Oil independence has been paramount in my thinking since 911 and should of been the patriotic trend in this country.

Obama has pledged to put one million ultra fuel efficient cars on the road by 2015, and gee wilickers they will be made right here in the USA. He also pledges to reopen our shuttered factories producing wind turbines and solar technology. He pledges to end the war in Iraq and use the 10 billion a month for health care and other beneficial programs to help the poor.

I am saddened by the low road that John McCain has taken with his campaign. I am very saddened by the crowds yelling things like terrorist and kill him at his rallies directed at Obama.

This election has divided the country in a time when we cannot afford to be divided. I wish that race was not such an issue in this election but no matter what anyone says it is a major factor. Obama and Bidden will make a great team. Bidden has the lowest net worth of any Senator and is honest as the day is long. He has never been on the take and does not bow to special interests.

None of us really truly know any of these candidates but based on what I have seen my money is on Obama, and I don't care what his middle name is. The man is cool, calm, collective, focused and unwavering and knows exactly how to get things done.

McCain is an angry old man that keeps changing his campaign pledges from day to day. And being from Arizona I have never forgotten the Keating five and the horrific economic damage he caused the country and this state.

[Jim E]

Jose I am going to say this for everyone else because you know it. I love you. I feel toward you like you are my brother.

That said.... I am going to say some things that folks will see as hard, or they could at least see that way and I want to say I am not attacking you what I want to do here is ask you some questions and point out a few things I see going on that may be wrong.

Obama has had some things said about him that at best are a stretch. He is reported to have been sworn in to office with the Koran.. actually he used his own Bible. He has been reported to be a Muslam. He has been a member of a christian church for at least 20 years. Of late I have seen emails that sya he is the anti christ.

I think his religion is whacky at best but I think that about all religons. I also have to question how the right can claim these things and still claim to be god fearing forgiving folks.

Is it posible he is a closet Muslim... one who has never been seen to neal down and pray to meca and who has hide in a christian church for the last 20 years. Really is this posible?

Now I know you did not speak to any of this but I want to bring it up because this has been used to paint Obama by some folks and I can only think that to comapre hime to Hugo you must have been influenced at some degree by these reports.

Now questions....

1. Provided his ideas of change are not so good for the USA, what is it about the current policy in america that are good? go back as far as you want What is it that required a man like you who worked HARD all his life to have to retire out of the country to be able to have a reasonable life style.

2. Medical.... how is it that if I get sick with my current medical non coverage that I am one major sickness from losing everything I have? why is it that you had your surgery done there and not here?

3. Food stamps..... should my sister who has MS not get help from the government, should my mom who is retarded not be on the government tit.

I could go on and one with these of issue but I a pretty sure you are going to agree with me on these issues the government has to suport folks who cannot help them selves. Or maybe not perhaps my sister with MS should be living with me or in a box on the side of the road.

Jose where do we draw the line?

[v6jose]

You know, it is easy to say greed, greed, greed, when we are talking about businessmen who are importing this junk, but if we buy at Wal-Mart or Kmart, we are being as corrupt as they. We want a low price for what we buy, and we really don't think of the implications. My brother is a lefty. I try to tell him that all the things he supposedly stands for, are being violated by these companies, but he loves to save money, so he continues to patronise them. His wallet is more important than his principals.

I hate these companies and won't buy from them. I know it costs me more, but I believe in our country, and China isn't our best friend. It abuses it's people, by paying them a pittance, and pockets the rest. Communism doesn't work. China still hasn't eradicated poverty and never will, because communism and socialism make more poverty.

Jose

[lgurley]

It ain't that easy to be a conservative. You have to defend the fact that you really do believe it is more fair for peoples Aunts and grandchildren to have poor housing and not being entitled to universal health care and retirement to good housing.
People don't want to hear about how the motto of some of the early settlers was "them what work eat".
This stuff is hard for us to defend because it is so cruel.

It is easy to defend the liberal way and promise that the government should give you all the freebies.
What is the easiest plan to get votes.
Yep!! it is easier to sell liberalism.
And there is no such thing as "registered Independent". There is only "I can't decide. Am I a maker or a taker?"

[v6jose]

Hi Jim,

I don't take offence at someone elses opinion, so don't worry. As I have said before, I don't look at anything says about Obama, because bad things have been said about both candidates, which under scrutiny, prove to be a stratch. What I'm talking about, are things Obama has said himself. I have heard his own words, from his own mouth. His speeches are pretty close to what Hugo Chaves used to say when he was running for office. They both believe in income redistribution. What Hugo has done, instead of using all the money we send him for the oil we buy from him to pay for more schools, hospitals and infrastructure, he has spent millions on tanks, submarines, and AK47s. He is in trouble in his own country, because the people are poorer now than before.

I want to ask you all a question. Can you name me a communist or socialist country that has ended poverty? North Korea, Cuba, China? Even socialist European countries, have not ended poverty. What they do, is make everyone poorer. I don't have any problem with the government helping the poor, but when the government says that you don't have to work to get a check, it has gone too far. There are legitimate reasone for some to receive money from the government, like too old to work, folks that are sick or disabled (physically or mentally). What most people don't take into account, is that when the government gives you something, it takes something. Ask the people who lived under communism in Poland, Ukrane, Russia, Georgia and other countries ruled by the old USSR. These folks dont want any part of it any more.

Obama now sounds like a moderate, but you need to do a little research, to see what he has espoused before. As far as Obama going to put all those green cars on the road, he doesn't have any power to do that. he is against drilling for our own oil. He now says that he's for drilling, but what he doesn't say, is that as long as it is not within fifty miles of the coast. This effectively stops drilling, because most of the oil is within those fifty miles. He doesn't want to drill, but won't come out and say so up front.

We have ten percent of folks living under the poverty line in our country. Take a look around the world and see what the percentage is of poverty is elsewhere. I am not a rich man, nor am I white, so I can't be accused of raceism either. I just believe that the government has a role to play, but it shouldn't be a father to everyone. What liberalism does, is kill business and thus the ability to make work for folks to be able to take care of themselves.

The reason the folks in Venezuela put Hugo in power, was because of all the corruption that exists in Venezuela. Folks are going to vote in Obama, because they are mad a president Bush. I'm not thrilled with Mcain either, but he isn't Bush either. When Obama is elected, we will see the America we love, dissapear.

Jose

[Jim E]

The America we love is already gone and niether one of these guys is going to bring it back.

We lost it when we stopped making things. Really about the only thing still made in America are houses and much of the material used to build them is imported.

We somehow managed to get to the point that the only thing left to make money on is money or credit. The only job left for the average person is in the service industry working part time for $7 and hour with no benefits and the only part of the money these folks make that stays in the country is what they spend on housing. Think about the current situation and that. Then the poor scmuck working at Walmart buys a TV on credit because that is the only way he can get one and the bulk of the purchase price goes to china the only part of the transaction for anyone here to make money on is loaning the guy the money to buy the thing.

So is it any wonder that the whole credit banking problem is here now.

What do we do with all these unskilled laborers we have no factories to put them in. What social program will help them? train them to do what flip burgers work at Walmart. Then if they are on a social suport program getting food stamps or housing what do we put them to work doing to warrent the money they get. Mow grass on the freeway or pick up trash, who watches over that to see the woprk is done and who pays for the watching over.

I have not heard anything from either party that really addresses the situation

[v6jose]

The reason we are where we are, is because of unions. I can just hear the collective ghasp at that statement. I will explain. There was a time when unions were needed; to improve working conditions and raise pay to where a man could raise a family on what he made, so they were very important, but they have gone too far.

Back in the forties, if you wanted something that was made with quality, you had to buy something that said "Made in England". Then the unions made it too expensive to buy English products. In the fifties and sixties, if you wanted to buy quality, you bought "Made in America. Then we not only priced ourselves out of competition, but the quality went down too. In the eighties, if you wanted quality, you bought "Made in Japan", now the same thing is happening there. China is now the cheapest, although they still are making junk (Remember when we laughed at Japanese products?) .We want the lowest prices, so we buy whatever is cheapest, and in so doing, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

Unions have pushed for more and more pay and more and more benifits, to the point where we have priced ourselves out of competition. We like to blame those companies that go over seas to make their products, and like to complain that they do it to make money, but they need to make money, or they will go out of business. I have owned a small business, and the high tax rate in the state of Washington, put me out of business. I had five employees and when I had to close, I had to lay them all off. That didn't do anything for them or the unemployment numbers. Small business is the back bone of the American economy, so if we tax the h**l out of it, we will be killing the economy.

Jose

[lgurley]

We have educated ourselves away from prosperity. Yes, we need some non college educated citizens to do manual labor at a reasonable rate. Not every job needs a degree and people with degrees won't empty the trash. Of course we then go to illegals to get the day to day work done.
I remember Sam Walton's advertisements stating that we sell only products that are made in the U.S.A. when possible.
In my little town if you want anything you almost have to buy it at Wally World. I sometimes roam the aisles with my list in my hand trying to find something labeled "Made In Pakistan" or Peru or Thailand(good shrimp too) because I won't buy anything "Made in China" Some days I go home empty handed. Oh! you can get fresh previously frozen salmon from Chile. Be careful though because the Chinese make "China" look like "Chile". I have not bought Shell Oil since 1980. I am sure there must have been a reason other than they were German owned or maybe it was because they were passing out these flyers in the parking lot of the nuclear power plant I was working on. The power plant got shut down before the first of four reactors ever came on line. The newspaper headline was something to the effect that the reactors were shut down due to the overestimation of energy needs.
I am sure glad they didn't under estimate the future energy needs.
I have a lot more but my blood pressure is going off the charts.
The next time you want to see some eyes glaze over just ask the mechanic to fabricate this little pin that will work on a graduated rate depending on the clutch pressure of a 98 Mustang transmission attached to a 1976 Ranger II bell housing and installed in a 40 year old foreign sports car. And make it so the jet lag don't slip yolk on the sliding collar.
No one knows how to do crap any more.
And please!! I hope you don't think I know what a wobblin' rod is and where it joins the whatchidigger. I have to email Jim or Jose

[lgurley]

I just watched the debate between the arrogance of liberal elitism and the incompetence of a worn out old war horse. Baring a miracle John McCain just gave away the country to Socialism, Abortion, and of course cradle to the grave nanny state.
I am going to Columbia to get some of those billions of dollars that Bush sent down there. Now we know Jose was sent to watch the money.

[v6jose]

Hi Jim,

What you said about the America we love being gone already, is a matter of opinion. I see The U.S. as a decent country. I didn't say perfect, but I believe it is the very best one in the world. Most liberals will see it differently. They believe we are terrible, unjust and basically unfair. I know that sounds bad, but I believe it is so. Conservatives are more positive in their opinion of our country. My brother gets mad when I tell him that, but he doesn't have another answer.

I asked a question a few posts back, but no one answered. Which Socialist or Communist country has ever eliminated poverty? I'm still waiting for an answer.

Our country is still the land of opportunity. That is why people from all over the world pay so much money, and some even pay with their life, just to get a chance at the American dream. We are blessed, and yet we can't see the good that we have. When Obama gets elected, we'd better strap ourselves in, because we will have reached the top of the roller coaster and are about to go down hill pretty quickly.

When Obama gets elected, I will have to return to the states, because he will end Plan Colombia, which has helped the Colombian army to push the Communist guerrilas up into the jungles. Without American help, they will once again gain strength to where it will be dangerous to live here, as an American. When I first came here 12 years ago, you were only safe in 30% of the country, now, it is 70% or more of the country that is safe. It will be a disaster for Colombia and me personally.

Jose

[lgurley]

Jose,
You are of course correct.
Communism and Socialism never succeeded in any way. Not financially and absolutely not politically. They never eliminated poverty. Of course I am the guy that believes that life is not fair and that is how it was intended. When down gets to dirty each one of us is on his own and the good among us will help the less fortunate if we can. Just don't tell me it is your right to decide who I help.

[v6jose]

Just yesterday, I heard Obama say why he is against the free trade agreement with Colombia. he said that because there are reports of union leaders being targeted for assination and being killed, with no convictions, he thinks that human rights in Colombia aren't being respected. This is WRONG. I have lived here for four years, and I haven't heard of any union members being assinated. Under the rule of Alvaro Uribe, the government has worked very hard to eliminate, both Guerillas and paramilitarys. Just to let you know how the government of Colombia is working to respect human rights, Uribe has put in jail some of his own supporters, because of their ties to the paramilitaries. Where have you ever seen or heard of that? When Uribe came into ofice abour six years ago, the poverty rate here in Colombia, has dropped from 65% to 45%. His plans are for the poverty rate, when he leaves office in two years, is for it to have dropped to 30%. All of this has been done in a democratic, capitalist country. In comparison, all the other countries in South America that are socialist, their economies are going down hill, even with them nationalizing most of the big businesses.

I'm living in the middle of all this insanity here in South America, so I appreciate what my country stands for. With all it's faults and warts, it is still the greatest country in the world.

Jose

[Jim E]

Not sure unions are always a good or bad thing. I know my moms side of the family was involved in the coal mine wars a situation that could have been avoided had the mine owners been a bit less greedy. There was truth in the song line "I owe my soul to the company store
Think there is also truth on the other side, the UAW is an easy target think they got greedy and cost themselves jobs. Then I really do not see that as any different than what the Wall street folks just did. Actually I see no difference in the Wall street boys and the mine owners either.

I do not think our country is a bad place, I do think the Americain dream is no more which is why I said the country we love is gone. The average person can no longer work hard and have a secure future. Now I am not saying that it is imposible to work hard and have a secure future but to do it you better be either lucky or on the upper end of the IQ curve the morals of an alley cat will not hurt your chances either.

Larry the boot strap thing use to work. My father left West bygod Virginia back in the mid fifties for the Ohio factories. Where does that same sort of demegraphic go today to get thier piece of the american dream. Actually I think my dad made a mistake moving away from his rootes he left a life style I would love to have. They grew their own food and the cash crop was tabacco for what little money they needed. Well that and corn whiskey, I just found out my great grandad was a big time boot legger. We still own the valley, Ellis fork of the big ugly and I wonder sometimes if I should just go back to the place dad left.

The easy thing IMO is to say f**k'em til they bleed