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Post by skywords on Oct 18, 2008 0:56:58 GMT -5
Just yesterday, I heard Obama say why he is against the free trade agreement with Colombia. he said that because there are reports of union leaders being targeted for assination and being killed, with no convictions, he thinks that human rights in Colombia aren't being respected. This is WRONG. I have lived here for four years, and I haven't heard of any union members being assinated. Under the rule of Alvaro Uribe, the government has worked very hard to eliminate, both Guerillas and paramilitarys. Just to let you know how the government of Colombia is working to respect human rights, Uribe has put in jail some of his own supporters, because of their ties to the paramilitaries. Where have you ever seen or heard of that? When Uribe came into ofice abour six years ago, the poverty rate here in Colombia, has dropped from 65% to 45%. His plans are for the poverty rate, when he leaves office in two years, is for it to have dropped to 30%. All of this has been done in a democratic, capitalist country. In comparison, all the other countries in South America that are socialist, their economies are going down hill, even with them nationalizing most of the big businesses. I'm living in the middle of all this insanity here in South America, so I appreciate what my country stands for. With all it's faults and warts, it is still the greatest country in the world. Jose Hello Jose How are you? I hope you are well my friend. I am responding to this post of yours because the media is painting a very different picture than what you are saying. I have read that 400 union members have been murdered since Uribe has taken office. It is not just one paper reporting this. Here is a bit from one paper: SANTA MARTA, Colombia -- Zully Codina was a mother, veteran hospital worker and union activist. The last role was the one that cost Codina her life at the hands of paramilitary death squads, whose records show they collaborated with the country's intelligence service to liquidate her and other union activists. Codina was killed on Nov. 11, 2003, when a gunman pumped three bullets into her head moments after she kissed her family goodbye and walked out of her Santa Marta home. Her murder remains unsolved, as do those of the vast majority of the 400 union members killed since President Álvaro Uribe took office in 2002. Now you certainly have a better feel for the working man's situation there than we do up here. This however is what our candidate Obama is referring to and if our news agencies and the associated press are incorrect then maybe all our news is erroneous. I am all for trade with Colombia if it is FAIR TRADE. On another note we have a couple of Columbian Air Force gentlemen at our airport bringing a couple Tweety Birds from DM AFB back to Colombia. Nice guys that are here to get a little radio work done before their trip. They look like good airplanes that will make good trainers or ground attack aircraft.
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Oct 18, 2008 20:18:39 GMT -5
Jose, hat to barge in (well, sort of) but can you name me any Capitalistic country that has eliminated poverty?
The only countries I can think of have eliminated poverty though sale of oil, using direct distribution of wealth, or in simple terms, socialism. These are small middle east oil-rich countries. This is somewhat like Palin has done in Alaska, where she increased taxes on the oil companies and distributed it to the citizens. Does that count as Socialism? Can you image what the conservatives would be saying if Barack had done that?
As I figure it, Obama's big problem is his honesty. He proposes several tax breaks for small, upstart businesses. Most of which any Republican would be proud of. The problem is, he had to be honest about it and provide a means to pay for the program: Tax those that have been successful (sorry Larry). As he explained it to Joe the Plumber, "To redistribute wealth, to help those that follow behind you". Plainly meaning to fund tax breaks to other startups. It takes a special kind of thought process to twist that into "give the money to those that do not work". But we have some extremely talented people in this county. They can turn darkness into daylight, this one was duck soup to them. Are you sure Obama has espoused these things, or have they simply been attributed to him? Right now, McCain is saying Obama went to Joe the Plumbers door, (demonstrably false, Joe went up to him). Made him a celebrity (false, McCain did that by mentioning him 21 times during the debate. Obama had not mentioned him until that time) and is harassing him (false, the media is doing that). Nowhere does he mention that JTP lied to Obama about his financial status ($40,000 income) or the business he wants to buy (not for sale, earns the owner $100,000 a year, not $280,000 and besides, Joe is behind on his taxes). Never have so many lies and false implications been put forth is such few words. But the anti Obama crowd does not care and cheers when McCain tells them Obama is an enemy of the country ("In America, we confront our enemies, vote McCain-Palin").
In short: be careful, do not believe all you hear or see in print.
Bill
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Post by v6jose on Oct 18, 2008 22:50:37 GMT -5
Hi Rick,
Most of what you read in the press in the states, aboutwhat is going on here in Colombia, is a bunch of C**p. I have lived here for more than four years, and I'm aware of everything that goes on here. This lady may have been executed as you say, but that kind of thing goes on every day, without it being a political assination. President Uribe has a 90% favorable rating, because he has been the one behind deminishing the guerillas influence. You may not know this, but the FARC, (guerillas) are leftists, which foment problems here. The indigenous peoples here have some legitimate complaints, but the FARC send their agents to cause violence , which then the indigenous then get blamed for, which complicates things. They cause the National army to be blamed for the violence, when it is the rebels that are the ones that cause it.
I want you to also know, that Uribe gets blamed for all sorts of things, but the common people are grateful for the security that he has championed. What you are reading is a bunch of lies. Uribe has put in jail some of the people that are his supporters, because they had relations with the paramilitary, whis the private army that has fought the FARC for years. Don't believe everything you read in the liberal press, because they want to discredit those that want true democracy. This country has progressed a ton, with Uribe in the presidency. Something you can believe, is that he has lowered the percentage of poverty here, by 15%, and will drop it by another 15% before he leaves office in another two years. If things were as you have been led to believe, poverty would still be at 60%.
Bill
Apparently, you missed the whole point of my question. I never said that capitalism had ever ended poverty. I can tell you that the US has a lower percentage of poverty than any socialistic or communist country I know of. What I was saying is that you want to go to a socialist government, because you feel that cpitalism is unjust and basically bad, and you think these other forms of government would be better for the poor, and I'm telling you that that simply isn't true. All you need to do is look at history. You will never end poverty in this old world. What you can do, is make it worse, by trying to make everyone have the same thing. Neither socialism or communism has ever done anything concrete for the poor. You may still want to go with these discredited systems, but I will not change what the good old US of A has had for over 200 years. You remind me of my kid brother, who believes everything the liberal press sthingy feeds him and won't look at what reality really is. His mind is made up, so don't confuse him with the facts. I'm not telling you this, because I think you will think it through honestly, but I just don't want to hear what you have to say after Obama gets into office and screws up my country. You will repent, but it will be too late.
Jose
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Post by skywords on Oct 19, 2008 1:16:53 GMT -5
Jose One thing we can agree on is the Alpine needs more poop. Being a flaming liberal myself politics we can disagree. I would have to say that you have never been a liberal, am I right? Now I was a dyed in the wool Republican with a capital R. As a matter of fact I voted for Bush his first term. I also listen to Rush Limbaugh and O rielly as if they were the Gods of the truth. I still listen to them and watch Fox but with a tinge of skepticism. I will give Fox credit for they tell both sides more so than MSNBC that is almost a pure Democratic outlet. I think we have been cheated by the news outlets for they are more one sided than ever. Their job should to report the facts and not spin for any side. My allegiances to the Republican party has been eroded by the continuous and dramatic shift of wealth to the upper class. The US has never seen such a rapid shift of wealth since the 1920's. The Republican party claims to be the party for small government and responsible economics. Eight years ago they inherited a budget surplus and have now given us a ten trillion dollar national debt. They have made no efforts to establish any fair trade but instead have allowed and encouraged businesses to manufacture off shore. The economic problems we have can be summed up with three words: MADE IN CHINA. They have taken their eye off the ball in the war on terror by invading Iraq and not following Bin Ladin into Pakistan. The fact that he is still breathing is a tribute to Bush. After his last electoral victory four years ago, news papers around the world had headlines that read "How can 56 million people be so stupid" this says volumes of how we are viewed by the rest of the world. I strongly feel that an IQ test should be required to hold the office of president in the US. Bush would have been washed out long ago. Obama is one of the most intelligent candidates this country has ever been blessed with. I know that your mind is made up and what I am saying is not going to sway your thinking but that is the beauty of this place. Oh and by the way the Alpine needs more power.
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Post by v6jose on Oct 19, 2008 6:47:02 GMT -5
Hi Rick,
I want to apologize if I came across as being angry. I appreciate you and consider you a friend. I just get mad, when the press distorts the truth, to fit their own adjenda.
You know Rick, I don't really care what the rest of the world press thinks. They are just as far left as our press, or maybe even more so. They present their feelings as representative of all the people that live in their country, and there are more people that disagree with them, than agree with them.
My father was a staunch Democrat, so I was one too. The problem with the Democratic party, is that it has gone so far left, that even my father would leave it, if he were alive today. I am conservative and would have discribed myself as a blue dog Democrat, but I can not support the Democratic party, because it has left it's traditional roots. It has become so radical, that it bears no resemblance to anything that would have been considered back in my father's day.
I have my own problems with the Bush administration, but McCain isn't Bush. He's not even close. I also have some problems with McCain, but Obama is more than scary. He will change this country to something we don't even want to envision. With Obama in office, and both houses of congress being Democrat ruled, I can see them trying to call a constitunal convention and if that happens, you can kiss your guns, and Freedoms goodby. If you think that is too far out to think about, all you need to look at, is what has happened in every country that has gone left. Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, etc. etc. etc. When their present governments took power, the very first thing they did was to change their constitution. ALL of these governmemts have gone down hill, since they went left.
I know you are an intelligent man and I respect you for that, but your arguments sound like Democratic talking points. Please open your eyes and reconsider. I'm not saying you should vote Republican, but at least come up with different reasons for not doing so. To blame Geroge Bush for everything wrong with this country, is to not look at things realistically. He is not the reason that Bin Laden is still around. The generals that were running the war, screwed up. They had Bin Laden cornered in Tora Bora, and were suckered by by him, when he asked for three days to decide whether he was going to surrender. He used the time to escape to Pakistan. These incompetent generals also were letting the Afghans do the fighting, instead of letting our guys go in there and clean the Taliban out. To blame Bush for that isn't really looking at reality. I'm not crazy about him starting the war in the first place, but now that we are there, we need to win. I know that the Democratic party wants to blame Bush for everything, including for cancer, but we need to lay balme for the things he is responsible for, not for everything. I do agree that he stuck with Rumsfeld when it was obvious that Rumsfeld was incompetent. McCain had it right, but Obama will pull out and leave Iraq and lose the war. Pulling out of Iraq will leave it to the mercies of Iran and Al Qaida. Don't say that he won't do it right away, because he has said that he would and spend the money on his social programs.
I'm not very happy that we are getting most of our products from China either. I don't buy at Walmart or K-mart. I go out of my way to not buy Chinese, and most of the time, I have to pay more for what I buy, but China isn't our friend, so I don't patronize them. We agree about that. The problem isn't so much that we buy Chinese products, but that most Americans want the lowest price on everything. If the folks were willing to pay a little more for their stuff, the manufacturers that have left, would still be here. We all have to take part of the blame. We need to take responsibility for ourselves.
Maybe this election is a choice between two guys that we have problems with, but for me, I'd rather go with someone who believes in America. Unfortunately, Obama doesn't believe it is a great country. His vision for America would make it into something I want no part of.
I am a poor man because I made some foolish decisions in my youth. My father told me something he never said to any of my siblings. He told me that all I had to do was choose which university I wanted, and he would send me there. He wasn't a rich man either, but was willing to sacrifice, in order to send me. I loved women too much, so decided to get married in stead. Now tell me if that isn't stupid. Had I taken that opportunity, I would have gotten my engineering degree and the rest of the story would have been different. I have had to leave my country in order to live half way comfortably, but that isn't the governments fault. It was my stupidity. There are many folks that have made similar stupid mistakes, but now want the government to cover their behinds. My country isn't heaven. It has many faults, so anyone looking for heaven here on earth, is looking for something that will never exist here. I can't throw away the country we now have, just because I'm mad about some things that have happened. I won't jump from the frying pan into the fire.
Jose
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Oct 19, 2008 9:01:21 GMT -5
Jose, the Democrat party has not changed that much, you have. If you do not believe that, think back on the Roosevelt New Deal. If proposed today, it would drive the Neocons absolutely bonkers, just as it drove the Republicans batty 75 years ago.
But where do you find that Obama is a Socialist? That is the McCain Talking Point of the minute, but the taxes he proposes are no more and probably less, than Clinton's. If we do not raise taxes, how do we handle the many issues that have come to the crisis stage? More debt? How much do you have to lower taxes to balance the budget?
Oh yes, what do you think of Palins redistribution of wealth, Alaska style? I know this is not on the McCain talking points list, but you should be able to respond anyway as you think for yourself.
While I must admit to being a Democrat, it is only because I find the Republican tactics of divide and conquer repulsive. Also, their dedication to trickle down economics (the best way to fed the sparrows is to give oats to the horse) has been proven wrong for the last 100 years. Money migrates up, not down. Add to that the general lack of respect for individual freedoms is very troubling. The liberal Democrats are the mirror image of the conservatives and equally repulsive. The major difference, they do not control the Democratic party like the conservatives control the Republicans.
Bill
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Post by v6jose on Oct 19, 2008 9:49:04 GMT -5
Bill,
You are the very example of what I have been saying. Apparently you haven't been listening to your candidate. What do you think he was proposing when he said to the guy that claimed to be a plummer, that he was going to collect from him in taxes, in order to help others get ahead? He hasn't hidden it, You Democrats are the ones who want to deny it, because you know that if the American people understand that, you will not win the election. I admire Obama for at least being honest enough to admit that, although he doesn't want anyone to know that he shares the same politics as Bill Aires or His reverend, but I know that if you had different ideas than those people, you wouldn't have been friends enough to associate with them. There is no way that Obama could have attended Jeramiah Wright's church for twenty years, and not only heard that garbage, buy been in agreement with those principles. It would take a big stretch to be so willing to ignore those facts. The fact is you want to deny it. Why not be honest? I am not making any friends by standing up and not being ashamed of what I believe. Why do democrats want to hide what they really believe?
The truth is that the extreem left of your party in control and the rest of the democrats are just along for the ride. Unfortunately, the ride will not have a good ending. I respect those Democrats thatstill believe that our country is a great country, and reject the extreemists in your party.
I can tell you, the democratic party has changed because of the extreem left taking over. You may not want to accept that, but there are a bunch of Democrats that will either not vote (because they just can't vote Republican), or are planning on voting for McCain. Not every Democrat is buying the propaganda.
I will not post anymore on this subject, because it seems futile. I will die for your right to vote for Obama. Unfortunately, since I'm out of the country, I can't vote, although it would be useless anyway, because my residence address in the states is in California, and we know which way that state goes on election day.
Jose
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Post by Jim E on Oct 19, 2008 10:27:01 GMT -5
Does anyone really think we can win the war in Iraq? is that posible, short of killing everyone there. What does a won war there look like. How do you get two groups of people who have guns and hate each other and us to agree. This is pretty much the cradle of civilization we are talking about here the place that invented writing. You would think it would be one of the most advanced forward thinking places on earth. Istead it is a place with a long history of war. How do we posibly fix this?
Did anyone catch the clips of Mcain and Obama at the charity fund raiser making jokes? They were both pretty funny. Reminded me of Bob Dole on Letterman after his election bid seen a side of Mr Dole I had not seen during his campaign and thought he seemed like a nice fellow.
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Oct 19, 2008 11:00:14 GMT -5
Jose, I think that Obama was saying he wants to use some of the $6,000 extra that Larry will have to pay to give tax breaks to a guy named Joe start a plumbing business. I don't have a problem with helping someone start a new business. Do you?
Do you have a problem with a governor gouging tax money from oil companies to give to the voters? Seems like you do not, so what is your problem with Barack using tax money to give a new business a helping hand? This is help in the form of reduced taxes, not a cash on the barrel head.
Just got through with watching Colin Powell on meet the press. d**n, I wish he represented the Republican party. One of the few guys that always seems to make sense. I must admit, though, his actions at the start of the Iraq war trouble me. I was against the war until he endorsed it, then I decided we probably should. What I do like about him, he is man enough to talk about it and does not shrink from his actions, saying he acted on the best information he had. I can accept that, but wonder, should he have had better info? Was the Bush/Cheny control of intel that complete?
Jim, I don't think it is possible to win the war in Iraq. The best we can do is get out and let their internal politics play out. I do think that Bidens idea of creating a federal gov't composed of three states has the best chance of success, but that is mostly for them to decide. We can't impose that upon them, unless we commit to spending the two or three hundred years (minimum) there to enforce the idea. The Kurds seem to like the idea, but the other two players do not. A classic example of what happens when religion enters politics. In this case, religion seems to be the basis for the politics. And some people in this country do not understand why we need to draw such a bright line between politics and religion.
Bill
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Post by lgurley on Oct 19, 2008 14:34:51 GMT -5
Jim, I get really carried away with these conversations. The things I say can never happen. We lost our Independence from the left wing many years ago. This is the best country in the world and I have no desire to leave her. I like to discuss these questions just to keep my brain working. In am tired now. We will talk later.
Larry
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Post by Jim E on Oct 19, 2008 15:46:35 GMT -5
Yeah is fun to talk about this stuff and it actually tends to make me think more about these issues, and I hope it opens my mind to other points of view.
This is a great country and IMO it is great because of the folks in it!
Say I am have a few problems posting anyone else?
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Post by Jim E on Oct 19, 2008 15:49:38 GMT -5
"Made in China" mercy I have seen apple juice from china... that freaked me out. Think too about the fact that you cannot buy a TV made in the USA.... how you can avoid buying china made products is beyond me, I am not sure that is posible
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Oct 19, 2008 16:03:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I am to. The first post took a long time to go through came up with some funky message about trying to open a program that I'd never heard of. So I tried again, was very slow and I started to have second thoughts so I canceled. Turned out the first post went through.
Larry, all the talk about left, liberals and socialism is all relative. The most socialistic thing in this country is Social Security, followed (hell, maybe tied) with Medicare. Just try to get rid of either one. McCain calling the progressive tax code socialistic is a revelation as it has been accepted by both parties for almost 100 years. Socialistic? Maybe, but it is one of the basics of of our economic system. I will say that just prior to my retirement, our combined income went slightly over 100K. It is now about 70K. I enjoyed paying the higher tax compared to what we pay now. We don't pay as much, but can afford to pay it much less than we could. Hate to think of what it would be like if we were down to 30-40K/year. Would love to have to pay that additional 6K a year Obamas tax plan would incur on Joe the Plumber.
Bill
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Post by Jim E on Oct 19, 2008 21:03:11 GMT -5
Right after i posted that the next post went right thru, not sure if is usage or how much space we have taken up. Really cannot believe it is either one and the admin section I can go to does not give any clues
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