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Post by andrew on Sept 16, 2008 22:35:18 GMT -5
Well things are not the best. Number 2 cylinder only had 1/3 the compression so I did a leak-down test. There is a huge amount of pressure loss down through the piston and past the rings in the Number 2 cylinder. I only hear air passing into the block, no air passing through the exhaust or carbs. So it looks like my hard running down I75 did a number on the old girl. There is now way that I can do this work but hope to take care of things next year.
The only thing I need now is a mentor to guide me along when the time comes.
Hey, I will tell you now that I would do it all over again just to be at the Invasion!
Regards, Andrew
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Post by alpine64 on Sept 16, 2008 23:37:06 GMT -5
Andrew, Sorry to hear about the problems, however look at this as an opportunity to build a REALLY NICE alpine motor. I would say save the $ and do things really well.. fully balanced, polished and lightened, do all the tricks, vizard head, port matched and flowed, cut flywheel and perhaps go the chev rods. in the end you will have a very smooth motor and one that will be less stressed and more efficent.. oh and a bit faster
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Sept 17, 2008 6:30:22 GMT -5
Andrew, in the meantime, do you think the engine will be drivable?
Bill
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Post by Jim E on Sept 17, 2008 9:47:56 GMT -5
When you do a leak down test do you back the rocker adjustments off untill all the valves are closed? or do you do each cylinder seperate rotating the engine for closed valves on the cylinder you are testing. Just not real familiar with how this works.
Would not be surprised if you had broken piston rings which is pretty common on worn Alpine motors. My thought is this is due to cheap O rebuilds where the engine is just honed and new rings installed on the old pistons. The ring lands get to much slop and the rings break. Just a theory of mine but I have seen a lot of busted rings in Alpine motors.
Ok everyone get ready to shiver.... you could do an el cheap o patch job on it pretty quick.... Pull the head and give the valves a look, provided there are no sunk valves your next step is to scraped the carbon off the piston top and see what bore size you have. At this point you decide wherther to do just the low compression bore or all cylinders.... call Hastings piston rings and order rings, I would just do the bad cylinder myself being this is a quick and dirty patch job. You should order a new head gasket, oil pan and intake gaskets about this time. Now drop the oil pan and remove the number 2 rod and piston. Wrap rags around the #2 crank journal and then ball hone the bore. [oh you may need to ridge ream the bore depends on how much wear there is] after about 10 strokes on the ball hone you start cleaning, spray the bore with carb or brake cleaner and wipe the bore and crank down real well. You also need to clean up all the stuff you took off the motor and the block deck. Install the rings and put the piston back in, make sure it is oiled up well and the crank is lubed. Button it all back up and light it off. Should last for a good while and cost around $100. you just need to be real clean and a little lucky.
Yeah I know this is not the right way to do it
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Post by andrew on Sept 17, 2008 11:22:55 GMT -5
Andrew, in the meantime, do you think the engine will be drivable? Bill Hi Bill, No I don't think it would be a good idea to drive the car. The compression test shows 1-3-4 at aprox. 145 to 150lbs and number 2 was around 45lbs So I would be a little worried about what could happen to the piston and rings. Andrew
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Post by andrew on Sept 17, 2008 11:38:45 GMT -5
When you do a leak down test do you back the rocker adjustments off until all the valves are closed? or do you do each cylinder separate rotating the engine for closed valves on the cylinder you are testing. Just not real familiar with how this works. Hi Jim, Thank you for the communication, I need all the help I can get. When I do the leak down test I pull the valve cover and then watch the rockers as I move the car back and forth. I do a separate test on each cylinder and when both valves close I hook the tester up and hope for the best. You then keep an ear to the car/engine bay and note where the air is leaking from. 1-3-4 ran up to 165-175lbs and could hear air leaking into the block "past the rings". Number 2 cylinder read into the read at 25lbs with a massive air loss into the block or past the rings. It is a cool tool because you can find out if it is valve or rings and it provide a good window to the condition of each cylinder. Is it strange to see one cylinder do this? The other three are all similar and seem fine. I was wondering about a quick fix is that is all I can afford right now but would hate to do a no, no to the engine. Can I pick your brain when it comes time to do this? Do you have any idea what a full rebuild would cost, done right with chevy rods etc.? Thanks for your help Jim, it seems that going to the dark side can be of great help to a guy in need! Andrew (air from the exhaust tells you that the exhaust valve is bad, air from the carbs the intake vave is bad and air through the block or tap/vent you know you have a piston with bad rings)
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Post by lgurley on Sept 17, 2008 12:57:46 GMT -5
Andrew. I don't know if I got a good deal or a rip off but I took my 1725 to the machine shop and it cost me $450.00 plus parts. If I remember correctly the parts were a couple of hundred and the pistons and rings another $400.00 and some change. I know also that the following is not the best or accepted way but I have a good set of pistons bored 30 over. If you want to get her on the road with a temp fix until you can afford a rebuild I will lend them to you and when you do the rebuild you can send them back. No charge, just pay shipping.
Larry
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Post by mikephillips on Sept 17, 2008 14:29:12 GMT -5
You won't really know if you can do the quick fix until the head is off, and possibly the piston out. I've seen broken rings knock chunks out of ring grooves of the piston which makes it impossible to replace just the rings as they'll move too much. And my suspicion is you'll find the piston damaged as well.
Another question, how's the oil pressure?? If it's towards the low end you may need to do bearings too. Quick fix is to check the journals and put on the closest size to bring them near tolerance. But be careful doing that as it can fail fairly quickly if not right.
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blue
Junior Member
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Post by blue on Sept 17, 2008 16:17:50 GMT -5
Jim, when I was growing up, I knew people that would think your cheapo fix was an extravagant waste of money. Go the JY, get a used piston, scuff up the bore with sandpaper, install and it was good to go. I'd think your fix would be fine, might need a good used piston, though.
Bill
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Post by Jim E on Sept 17, 2008 18:09:06 GMT -5
Yeah might need a piston but a used piston should be pretty easy to come by.
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Post by andrew on Sept 17, 2008 22:02:13 GMT -5
Andrew. I don't know if I got a good deal or a rip off but I took my 1725 to the machine shop and it cost me $450.00 plus parts. If I remember correctly the parts were a couple of hundred and the pistons and rings another $400.00 and some change. I know also that the following is not the best or accepted way but I have a good set of pistons bored 30 over. If you want to get her on the road with a temp fix until you can afford a rebuild I will lend them to you and when you do the rebuild you can send them back. No charge, just pay shipping. Larry Wow, this group is great! A nice offer Larry and I will keep you in mind. I will contact you if I think I need them :) Thanks again, Andrew
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Post by andrew on Sept 17, 2008 22:12:29 GMT -5
Ok everyone get ready to shiver.... you could do an el cheap o patch job on it pretty quick.... Pull the head and give the valves a look, provided there are no sunk valves your next step is to scraped the carbon off the piston top and see what bore size you have. At this point you decide Werther to do just the low compression bore or all cylinders.... call Hastings piston rings and order rings, I would just do the bad cylinder myself being this is a quick and dirty patch job. You should order a new head gasket, oil pan and intake gaskets about this time. Now drop the oil pan and remove the number 2 rod and piston. Wrap rags around the #2 crank journal and then ball hone the bore. [oh you may need to ridge ream the bore depends on how much wear there is] after about 10 strokes on the ball hone you start cleaning, spray the bore with carb or brake cleaner and wipe the bore and crank down real well. You also need to clean up all the stuff you took off the motor and the block deck. Install the rings and put the piston back in, make sure it is oiled up well and the crank is lubed. Button it all back up and light it off. Should last for a good while and cost around $100. you just need to be real clean and a little lucky. Yeah I know this is not the right way to do it Ok Jim, I understand most of this but you lost me on a couple of things. You must remember that I have no idea how to rebuild an engine. I understand how things work and have played around but terms and proper procedure will not be a strong point on my end. Pulling the head, understood. Cleaning things and checking valves etc not a problem. Drop the pan, pull the rod and piston out, ok. Now this is where everything goes all south....."Wrap rags around the #2 crank journal and then ball hone the bore. [oh you may need to ridge ream the bore depends on how much wear there is] after about 10 strokes on the ball hone?? It is like me saying "bonjour et comment allez-vous aujourd'hui jim? ;D Please treat me like a newbie. Andrew
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Post by mikephillips on Sept 18, 2008 6:06:43 GMT -5
What Jim means is after removing the piston and rod and before you do any work you'll first put a rag around the crank where the rod attaches to keep debris from the cylinder from getting into it or the oil hole through the crank. For ridge reaming, once the piston is out you will probably find that at the top of the cylinder there's kind of like a step in the cylinder wall which is caused by the fact that while the piston goes to the top of the cylinder, the top compression ring does not, it's groove is slightly down from the top of the piston. So there's a small section of the cylinder that in theory never gets worn. You may need to use a tool to flatten out this ridge. As for the ball hold, think a bunch of round hones, like rubber balls, on wires attached to a central shaft you can mount in a drill. They press against the cylinder walls and remove the glaze from them as you run the drill and move it up and down in the cylinder.
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Post by andrew on Sept 18, 2008 6:25:20 GMT -5
What Jim means is after removing the piston and rod and before you do any work you'll first put a rag around the crank where the rod attaches to keep debris from the cylinder from getting into it or the oil hole through the crank. For ridge reaming, once the piston is out you will probably find that at the top of the cylinder there's kind of like a step in the cylinder wall which is caused by the fact that while the piston goes to the top of the cylinder, the top compression ring does not, it's groove is slightly down from the top of the piston. So there's a small section of the cylinder that in theory never gets worn. You may need to use a tool to flatten out this ridge. As for the ball hold, think a bunch of round hones, like rubber balls, on wires attached to a central shaft you can mount in a drill. They press against the cylinder walls and remove the glaze from them as you run the drill and move it up and down in the cylinder. Well, thanks Mike (and Jim): I understood the cylinder wall and what may need to be done including hones etc but never used a ball hone. Needing a rag to cover the oil passage holes in crank...... :-[good to know. Thank you for the help guys, this should be an experience. I will take the head off to see what things are like, I am unable to invest the cash into the car right now but at least I can prepare for the rebuild. I was informed by a fellow that I should remove the head by jumping or staggering back and fourth from each head bolt. He said that this would help prevent the head from being warped. Is this true? It sounds like a good idea. Is there a step by step resource or book that one can purchase that covers tricks of the trade? Thanks again for the information. Andrew
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by blue on Sept 18, 2008 7:17:04 GMT -5
Andrew, think of removing the head as untorqueing the head. Loosen the bolts in the same sequence as used in tightening the head, loosening each bolt about 10 ft pounds. After they get down to about 40 ft lbs, the bolts can be removed in a single step. Takes a little longer, but I think is worth the time the lessen the chance of warping.
Bill
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